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Subject: "Fleitz book"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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joe408
Member since Nov-14-02
11 posts
Dec-27-02, 04:08 PM (EST)
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"Fleitz book"
 
   I was reading in David Fleitz's book: SHOELESS, on the Grand Jury chapter (to answer an anti Jackson poster on another board), and there was a section that makes me wonder. It seems that after Joe finished up at the Grand Jury meeting, he went out and got drunk, and reporters were buzzing all around him. It seems, according to Fleitz, that Jackson was saying he was promised 15,000 more dollars from the fixers, but he never saw it. As Fleitz mentions, there was no way to tell how drunk Jackson was, but I am wondering, is Fleitz correct in his rehashing this incident, or, is he just guestimating his way through this? Joe's behavior in the Grand Jury room with the manipulator, Alfred Austrian, shows that Jackson admitted to nothing in the way of throwing games, yet, after he left the Grand Jury room, it seems he was telling a different story, what is Fleitz getting at here???


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VHOF Staffadmin
Member since Oct-2-02
24 posts
Dec-31-02, 01:56 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Fleitz book"
In response to message #0
 
>I was reading in David Fleitz's book: SHOELESS, on the Grand
>Jury chapter (to answer an anti Jackson poster on another
>board), and there was a section that makes me wonder. It
>seems that after Joe finished up at the Grand Jury meeting,
>he went out and got drunk, and reporters were buzzing all
>around him. It seems, according to Fleitz, that Jackson was
>saying he was promised 15,000 more dollars from the fixers,
>but he never saw it. As Fleitz mentions, there was no way to
>tell how drunk Jackson was, but I am wondering, is Fleitz
>correct in his rehashing this incident, or, is he just
>guestimating his way through this? Joe's behavior in the
>Grand Jury room with the manipulator, Alfred Austrian, shows
>that Jackson admitted to nothing in the way of throwing
>games, yet, after he left the Grand Jury room, it seems he
>was telling a different story, what is Fleitz getting at
>here???


We just read Dan Cook's article in the San Antonio Express News where Dan quotes an interview he did with Dickie Kerr in the late 1950's or early 1960's. He quotes Kerr as saying (it was Kerr's opinion and belief) that Joe Jackson did not particpate in the fix. This is the first we have ever heard of Kerr publicly stating what he thought about Jackson. You can read the entire column at:

http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=200&xlc=906441

-- VHOF Staff


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joe408
Member since Nov-14-02
11 posts
Dec-31-02, 07:16 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Fleitz book"
In response to message #4
 
   If Dickie Kerr said Jackson did not participate in the fix, thats good enough for me! I would sure like to find out Eddie Collins feelings on Joe in that Series.


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Mike Nolamoderator
Member since Oct-2-02
4 posts
Dec-30-02, 01:22 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Fleitz book"
In response to message #0
 
>I was reading in David Fleitz's book: SHOELESS, on the Grand
>Jury chapter (to answer an anti Jackson poster on another
>board), and there was a section that makes me wonder. It
>seems that after Joe finished up at the Grand Jury meeting,
>he went out and got drunk, and reporters were buzzing all
>around him. It seems, according to Fleitz, that Jackson was
>saying he was promised 15,000 more dollars from the fixers,
>but he never saw it. As Fleitz mentions, there was no way to
>tell how drunk Jackson was, but I am wondering, is Fleitz
>correct in his rehashing this incident, or, is he just
>guestimating his way through this? Joe's behavior in the
>Grand Jury room with the manipulator, Alfred Austrian, shows
>that Jackson admitted to nothing in the way of throwing
>games, yet, after he left the Grand Jury room, it seems he
>was telling a different story, what is Fleitz getting at
>here???

On September 29, 1920, the Chicago Tribune did run a second page article quoting Joe as saying "the eight of us went out and kicked it, we tried to lose for Dickie Kerr but he won it anyway and the gamblers doublecrossed us for double crossing them"....or something pretty close to that. Yes, this is pretty damning stuff against Joe.....but as we've said before....Joe could have been saying those comments for the benefit of the gamblers.....because if they thought he had taken their money and had not been in on the deal.....it wouldn't have been good for him. Everyone should also remember that Comiskey pretty much controlled the sportswriters in Chicago and I suspect elsewhere (if they covered his games). Comiskey took care of those guys during the season...so they would take care of him in the press...which they always did.....so I suspect there was some of that angle involved here too. This is one thing I cannot explain away about Joe.....it made no sense to me when I read it 15 or so years ago...and it still makes no sense to me.....but then there are a lot of things involving this scandal that do not make sense to me.......but it all gets back to "Reasonable Doubt"...and there is more than a fair share of that involved with Joe Jackson.

-- Mike Nola


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VHOF Staffadmin
Member since Oct-2-02
24 posts
Dec-28-02, 07:11 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Fleitz book"
In response to message #0
 
>I was reading in David Fleitz's book: SHOELESS, on the Grand
>Jury chapter (to answer an anti Jackson poster on another
>board), and there was a section that makes me wonder. It
>seems that after Joe finished up at the Grand Jury meeting,
>he went out and got drunk, and reporters were buzzing all
>around him. It seems, according to Fleitz, that Jackson was
>saying he was promised 15,000 more dollars from the fixers,
>but he never saw it. As Fleitz mentions, there was no way to
>tell how drunk Jackson was, but I am wondering, is Fleitz
>correct in his rehashing this incident, or, is he just
>guestimating his way through this? Joe's behavior in the
>Grand Jury room with the manipulator, Alfred Austrian, shows
>that Jackson admitted to nothing in the way of throwing
>games, yet, after he left the Grand Jury room, it seems he
>was telling a different story, what is Fleitz getting at
>here???


We do not remember reading any such articles......of course it has been many years since we last looked in detail at the Tribune and Daily News articles....but those comments do not stick out in our minds. We do know that Joe did indeed go out and get drunk after the confession.....but we do not know if he did that in public or not. Our guess is that Joe would have been afraid of the likes of Swede Risberg and probably would not have ventured out in public for days after his confession. The other side of us says...that even if Joe did say those things.....he had reason....and here's one offered as food for thought........Joe may have said these things to keep the gamblers from killing him.....if the gamblers had thought for one moment that Joe took their money and did nothing to earn it.....he would not have been on this planet long....they would have bumped him off in short order and most probably would have killed Katie too.....again...there is not fact to back that statement up......just a theory we have had for a long time. If anyone out there can quote us the source of these comments / articles...we'd like to re-visit them.......so let us know.

-- VHOF Staff


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joe408
Member since Nov-14-02
11 posts
Dec-29-02, 01:42 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Fleitz book"
In response to message #1
 
  

>>I was reading in David Fleitz's book: SHOELESS, on the Grand
>>Jury chapter (to answer an anti Jackson poster on another
>>board), and there was a section that makes me wonder. It
>>seems that after Joe finished up at the Grand Jury meeting,
>>he went out and got drunk, and reporters were buzzing all
>>around him. It seems, according to Fleitz, that Jackson was
>>saying he was promised 15,000 more dollars from the fixers,
>>but he never saw it. As Fleitz mentions, there was no way to
>>tell how drunk Jackson was, but I am wondering, is Fleitz
>>correct in his rehashing this incident, or, is he just
>>guestimating his way through this? Joe's behavior in the
>>Grand Jury room with the manipulator, Alfred Austrian, shows
>>that Jackson admitted to nothing in the way of throwing
>>games, yet, after he left the Grand Jury room, it seems he
>>was telling a different story, what is Fleitz getting at
>>here???
>
>
>We do not remember reading any
>such articles......of course it has been many years since we
>last looked in detail at the Tribune and Daily News
>articles....but those comments do not stick out in our
>minds. We do know that Joe did indeed go out and get
>drunk after the confession.....but we do not know if he did
>that in public or not. Our guess is that Joe would have
>been afraid of the likes of Swede Risberg and probably would
>not have ventured out in public for days after his
>confession. The other side of us says...that even if Joe
>did say those things.....he had reason....and here's one
>offered as food for thought........Joe may have said these
>things to keep the gamblers from killing him.....if the
>gamblers had thought for one moment that Joe took their
>money and did nothing to earn it.....he would not have been
>on this planet long....they would have bumped him off in
>short order and most probably would have killed Katie
>too.....again...there is not fact to back that statement
>up......just a theory we have had for a long time. If
>anyone out there can quote us the source of these comments /
>articles...we'd like to re-visit them.......so let us
>know.


I think this is a reasonable explanation because I seem to recall that Tommy Lasorda more or less said the same thing would happen if Joe tried to put one over on the gamblers, after all, wasn't Lefty Williams wife threatened with death if Williams didn't throw a game?
Even if Fleitz did get his remarks from certain newspaper articles, one has to think about the credibility of the reporters who were trying to outdo each other to get the best scoop(remember the street urchin asking Joe to "say it ain't so"). Possibly, in the days following the scandal, there may have been one or two newspapers that were credible, but I don't know which ones they were, I'd like to think there was at least ONE newspaper that had a good perception of the situation.


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